Donald Hall opens our reading for Tuesday, by asking, “Is a ‘queer’ history even possible?” (21). Given his subsequent discussion, how should we answer this question? As you respond, please integrate at least two concrete examples or direct citations from Hall’s chapter and use your analysis of them to help you explain his claims about queer history and identity. What’s significant about his discussion, especially in relation to fostering justice for queer folks?
Aim for at least 250 words in your comment to this post. Make sure to take time to edit it for clarity and correctness. I look forward to reading what you have to say!
After reading the first chapter, I would answer that a “queer” history is possible. On the very next page of the reading, Hall writes the following:
ReplyDelete“There would be no popular and effective lesbian and gay rights movement today without a process of historical data recovery, which opens up the possibility of affirming contemporary lives by looking back over time to find that we are not alone in our experiences of oppression and struggles for acceptance.” (Hall 22).
I understood the quote as a way of saying without the historical context of “queer” people, the LGBTQ+ movements would probably have little to no coverage, and would not make as much of an impact on people as it does now. To add on, in my opinion, a movement must start with a bit of history behind it. The background knowledge, such as the arrests made towards gay men until the 1930s (Halls 38), eventually would spark anger for those same men who want to be seen as no less than human. On page 29, it brought up similar points:
“Thus even though it would be reductive to chart the linear ‘rise’ of a homosexual identity, it is vital to recognize how traditions and cultural/subcultural systems do develop over time.” (Hall 29).
I understood this quote similarly to the first one. Except for this time I interpreted it as a way of how our identities are shaped. Our culture and customs forever evolve, and both have a way of impacting someone somehow.
The significance about Halls’ discussion was that “queer” history is different, yet it is still vital to our society. This type of movement is definitely more personal and puts the participants in vulnerable positions, but the work is crucial for any place in the world. He used examples of how sexual lifestyles are different in various countries and time periods, and we must learn to accept it. Same goes when it comes to accepting “queer” people in our own society while being careful about the terminology we use. Halls’ emphasized that while it has a different historical background, people should accept and normalize that various sexualities and genders exist, and that is our norm.
Yes, good points. One issue to consider thinking about further: How does the evolution and shifting of queerness over the years complicate out ability as contemporary LGBTQIA+ people to identify with or understanding various queer subjectivities in the past that were very different from our current identities?
DeleteBased on the reading, I would say that ‘queer’ history is possible. With ‘queer’ history, it is important to keep in mind that the sexual activities between men and between women have manifested differently, and “the ways it was socially castigated or tolerated have varied greatly” (Hall, 21). It is crucial to keep this in mind when examining ‘queer’ history and understanding how we got to where we are now. For example, let’s compare the Greek Era to the Christian Era. According to Hall, “Aristophanes theorizes that the world was once made up of conjoined beings, some of mixed sex, others of two men or two women” and sexuality was based off by looking for one’s missing half (Hall, 27). This theory naturalizes and celebrated “the search for a soulmate” regardless of one’s sexual orientation (Hall, 27). However, this theory from the Greek Era was highly criticized during the Christian Era. Many churches were against same-sex relationships and many same-sex individuals faced persecution which included “castration, incarceration, and public execution” (Hall, 28). These examples provided insights into how ‘queer’ history builds off of each other from one era to another. As time went on, many queer individuals started challenging the “norm” (Oscar Wilde being a key example) and bringing to light the injustice that queer individuals have faced in an effort to create social change. By learning about the injustices that have occurred in the past eventually brought about social change through political movements during the twentieth century. The significance about Hall’s discussion is that we can not understand how we got to where we are now without visiting our past, and how our past has guided us to the present.
ReplyDeleteYes, good points! You're especially attuned to the issue I raised above in my response to Yael's comment. And in way these historical differences might help us see the distinctions between queer history and LGBT history.
DeleteWith enough digging yes a queer history is possible. Although it is hard to trace because of forced silence, changes in terms and circumstances, it is still possible. Hall argues that a queer history is difficult because much of same sex or queer sexuality has gone unrecorded. However the history of many minorities has gone unrecorded (or has not been well recorded) such as people of color or women but these groups still have a history. There are instances of losing big chunks of information or missing information in history and we still count it. With the same logic a queer history is possible. Hall might argue that it’s hard to have a queer history because “queer” includes a lot of different things. This might be one reason Hall finds it hard to have a comprehensive queer history. However, even if one must trace different identities, sexualities and attractions they would still be included in a queer history. Hall also claims that because terms were not constant through time that it is hard to have a comprehensive idea of the history. He later writes that it is important to makes these terms visible in order for it to be possible to have a history. The less queer folks have to live in fear or secrecy the more full and rich history it will be possible to have. Going a step further it is not only important to discover queer history but it is really important to study it and talk about it to further the acceptance.
ReplyDeleteYes, the issue of visibility and what's been recorded or even seen in the past as meaningful complicates how we even compile and see an archive of material from which to write these histories. I appreciate how you're summarizing some of Hall's points in your own words, but look at how some of your peers are using direct quotations, too. That can help you anchor your analysis more concretely in the text.
DeleteAfter reading chapter 1 of Hall’s Queer Theories, I think that queer history is possible and important, despite all of the underlined problems that Hall points out. Although, I can agree with Hall that even a single life doesn’t travel on linear path of causes and effects that make up a straightforward story. I agree that when you add in the complexity of many lives it makes drawing out patterns of linear changes even more difficult. However, as Hall points out, “there would be no popular and effective lesbian and gay rights movement today without a process of historical data-recovery, which opens up the possibility of affirming contemporary lives by looking backwards over time to find that we are not alone in our experiences of oppression and struggles for acceptance.” (22) Queer history is not so easy to determine because much of it is hidden and poorly recorded, but the recorded history that does exist helps to form a feeling of comradery and not being alone in ones struggle. For example, Hall points out that the Stonewall Riots were the inspiration for pride festivals during the month of June. Although the Stonewall Riots weren’t the birth of gay and lesbian civil rights, they certainly are important because they inspired an event that celebrates gay and lesbian identity and comradery.
ReplyDeleteYes, you're right to emphasize the ways in which our contemporary needs fuel the drive to recovery and document these histories. Stonewall is a great example of what can inspire us today, from the past. As I commented above, do keep thinking though how we see the non-normative or same-sex or other queer desires and identities of the past. How similar are they really to LGBTQIA+ identities of today?
DeleteBased on Hall’s discussion of queer history, I think it is very possible. Forced silence on topics due to societal disagreement is a common theme throughout history, and queer history is an example of that. Just because something was not recorded properly, does not mean that it did not exist. The few queer moments recored in history come to the support of the idea that queer history exists. For example, the wealthy, male, Greek citizens were known to partake in homosexual acts. “That sexual contact between patrician men and boys was ‘naturalized’ at the time prompts us to see our own systems of organizing social/sexual relations as similarly time-bound” (Hall, 26). This evidence supports the argument that queer encounters were a part of a historic society, and the status of those participating in the “homosexual” acts allowed these acts to be spoken about and historically recorded. Their higher up positions made it acceptable, and if this was the case in other societies, then those relationships/acts could have also been recorded. On top of queer history in the social aspect, there has also been a scientific queer history. “But perhaps the most clear-cut essentialist claims in gay studies recently are far removed from such metaphysics, are being generated by scientists, including Simon LeVay, who seek a firm biological basis for homosexuality” (Hall, 43). Throughout history more and more scientific research has been done (some incorrect and misguided), contributing to queer history. As more about science and human biology has been discovered, more accurate science has justified queerness. Although queer people weren’t necessarily seeking justification, science can help some closed minded people better understand queerness. In order to bring about justice for an issue— queerness, there has to be a history of injustice. Validating not only the existence of queer people through history, but also their struggles and triumphs, helps to give the fight for justice a basis.
ReplyDeleteThoughtful comment, and yes, looking back to the Greeks has been and continues to be a strong argument that "homosexuality" has been present throughout history. Make sure, though, too, to bear in mind the other main facet of Hall's discussion: That such historical manifestations of queerness are also very different from our modern/contemporary queer identities.
DeleteAlso, please let me who posted this comment. It's not clear, and I would like you get credit for it. Thanks!
Sydney Monahan
DeleteThanks!
DeleteHall's "The Social Construction of Queer Theories" highlights claims about queer history and identity which explains how yes, a 'queer' history is possible. One of the most important points Hall made comes straight from the title. He states that "'history' is always an artificial construct which depends upon each interpretation, exclusion, and information shaping that reflects inevitably and indelibly the beliefs and biases of the historian or critic. There are contradictions, reversals recurrences, and anomalous actions that make biography writing an act always of creative writing" (Hall 21). Each person's experiences are too complex and diverse to group together as a generalization but allows for the individual expression of experiences. Hall states that this sexual unconformity has gone unrecorded because of the fear of exposure of this new sexual expression. "But certainly naming something and giving it a history (an individual life or a span of years) does make it available as a way of organizing one's identity and of seeing and proactively creating affiliation" Thus, history being able to take many forms and doesn't fit into one mold allows for the LGBTQ community to participate in communal validation.
ReplyDeleteThis interpretation of history is also reinforced though Halls explanation of how "history motivates by offering examples of what can happen if one fails to organize and fight back, by stoking one's angers over the many horrors perpetrated by generations of oppressors, and by creating a "telos" (an end point or goal): the present moments where action simply must be taken or a future moment of "liberation" that one must fight to realize" (Hall 22). In simply existing 'queerly', people were living in ways that had a political impact existing to challenge laws, policies, and perceptions that led to lesbian and gay political movements. These movements led to the fostering of justice for the queer community though "action groups" who paved the way for awareness and urgency for equality; The Stonewall Riots being an example. Deconstructing the experiences of the LGBT community that came before us allows the continuous learning and writing of queer history to this day.
Thank you for your comment. I appreciate the key quotations you're citing and bringing to bear on this conversation, and you're right to emphasize the complexity and multiplicity of any act of historical writing. Don't overlook Hall's other point, here, though, too, and that is when we look back from our current positions, our current identities, we also shape the very history that we look back on. That is, in my contemporary identity I also make certain forms of queerness more similar to my own in my very act of historical appropriation. It neither good nor bad (it can be both), but an understanding impulse of our human need to understand where we've come from. But the trajectory of that becoming isn't always as neat and tidy of a story as we sometimes like to think.
DeleteBeginning with the notion that history is an artificial construct which is necessarily biased and leveraged for different purposes, ‘queer’ history exists, and has been powerful for the formation of identities as well as the progress of social movements. However, I am hesitant to say that a singular history of any people can be written and accurately representative of said group. People are complex, and as Hall notes, labels and related identities are always understood “Through the lens of our own language and reference systems.” (24). Social categories are contextual, both in terms of time and culture, but nevertheless they are important. As Hall walks us through a brief history of sexual identities in Western culture, we see a consistent trend of oppression based on sexual practices that have been deemed abnormal. Even in cultures such as ancient Greece or the Libertines of 19th century England where same-sex activity occurred and sexual freedom was encouraged, it was still highly selectively, as these options were deemed acceptable only for men of a certain status. The ideas born from the latter era, though, such as a (limited) notion of individualism which encouraged the concept that social roles are constructed and changeable rather than pre-determined and fixed set the stage for far more radical thought. (30). Various movements continued to challenge norms regarding both gender and sexuality, bringing us to an age where a wide-variety of identities are being acknowledged and affirmed- though certainly not by everyone- and incorporated into our social fabric. However, as academic literature and social movements in this realm evolve, there are continued conflicts are what kind of significance we ought to place on these social constructs, which have very real implications in our lives. On the one hand, the notion that “identity must be affirmed before it is deconstructed,” is important to consider, yet the understanding that these constructs were primarily created to enforce hierarchy is definitely valid grounds for desire to disempower and dismantle these structures. (45). All of this and more is Queer History- it is multiply faceted, complex, and at times contradictory, because history is the people who make it. To confine it to anything less would be an injustice.
ReplyDelete^This is Cailin by the way
DeleteYou're characterizing the tensions well. Any history is complicated to write, but perhaps especially one in which the very terms of analysis seem to have shifted in many different and interesting ways. So I'm curious, do you think conceptualizing all of this as "queer history" is in itself useful, possible good?
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ReplyDeleteAfter reading Chapter 1 of Queer Theories I would impose that a queer history isn't possible, and is problematic. Hall states on the first page, even a life isn't a linear (21). It has all sorts of variables that can change things. Every queer life and story is different and there's not just one event that can be put down and documented. While something bad can be happening one day, that same day there can be a march happening to advocate for LGBTQ rights. Another example Hall uses to explain "Queer History" is the Greeks and New Guinea. The Sambia of New Guinea had many different views of the act of being gay. To become a man it was said you had to drink semen during oral sex(48). Hall looks at this in asking why is this a sexual act? He even asks, "Why is it significant that young boys become men by putting mouth to penis rather than eating semen with a bowl and a spoon?” He also discusses that the Greeks were very open in their sexuality, however the Christians started to punish people for engaging in sexual behavior with the same sex(31).
Yes, you're right to emphasize the vast differences between historical moments and cultures. Same-sex desire and sexual activity might mean very different things in these different contexts and we have to ask ourselves, what do they have to do with our contemporary LGBTQIA+ identities? At same time, they also seem to have a lot to do with them. Just maybe not what we expect them to.
DeleteTo perceive of a queer history one would first need to queer history; the implication here is that the verb form of queer is necessary to reconstruct a history that aims to give representation to the real for the real to be the actualized real. One noteworthy observation, as Hall describes, is that "'history' is always an artificial construct, one that depends upon numerous acts of interpretation;" therefore, it holds that a queer history would be one in where the acts of interpretation are undertaken deliberately with the intent to claim spaces in time that have already played out yet not yet read out. The construction of a queer history would require a level of fluidity consistent with the values of the construction itself. How ought one go about queering history? With careful attention to value, and close eye for nuance and detail. The initial problem arises when the historian is tasked with the present question of her craft: “What do we count as queer in history?” Does not the historicity of any event—especially the most antiquated—present a dilemma for the queer? Are we to count the acts of ancient Greeks—as “anachronistic” as charges of abuse may be, they are not unfounded—as proudly queer and place the event next to Stonewall? It seems, then, that a queer history is one where the struggles for liberation and deviation from the strictures of general heteronormativity (though even this term presents a historical dilemma) are documented for condemnation, inspiration, or praise.
ReplyDeleteYes, you are focussing in on the dilemma--how and why should contemporary LGBT folks claim ancient Greeks as a part of our history? Is it just because older Greek men had sexual relations with younger men (say, late teens early 20s)? Does that make them appropriatable for queer history? As you suggest, there are good reasons to do so, but equally good reasons to be somewhat skeptical about this (but not for homophobic reasons).
DeleteBased upon the first chapter of Queer Theories it is shown that queer history is very important. The use of this history allows us to know where and what we come from and is set very early on. It is important shown in the very second paragraph of the reading stating, “for our purposes because queers have lived often in ignorance of each other and of queer-relevant historical information from the near, as well as distant, past.” (21) It is saying that if we don’t recognize the history of “queerness” then you will never learn regarding the history. The earliest story of queerness comes from the Classical Greek era. The Greeks had no problem with queerness, “While we know much more about how men organized their sexual lives during that and most other eras than we do about how women interacted sexually, we do know that homosexual activity, within certain boundaries, was not regarded as a threat to society.” (26) The Greeks while not fully approving were open to the queerness within the society. The use of this example of queerness is that in one of the earliest civilizations it was accepted and viewed as regular. This shows that acceptance is not hard and has been done before in the history of time.
ReplyDeleteYes, you're right to emphasize the continuities between queer people of now and queer people in the past, but also, pay attention to Hall's other facet of his argument: That the same-sex desires and acts of ancient Greece were in many ways very different than ours, and they weren't "gay" in the same way as we might be said to be.
DeleteAfter having read Hall’s analysis on whether or not queer history is possible I do t believe we can ever fully achieve an accurate queer history. Hall’s description Of history as an artificial construct that would have to be “queered” to be accurate reminded me of how we often hear history from the perspective of the majority. A perfect example of this is when Foucault oversimplifies the “date” of the “birth of homosexuality”. That oversimplification of the queer embodied experience probably wouldn’t occur if the history of queerness was written by someone who can relate to the experience. But what I find to be most concerning is the fact that most of the history reported in Hall’s brief summary of “queer history” is that most of these examples are more concerned with the public consciousness surrounding queerness rather than queerness itself.
ReplyDeleteYou're right to raise the question of who is writing this kind of history, but be careful about making assumptions. Foucault was queer himself, so his oversimplification (which was itself oversimplified by Hall) is coming from a queer authorial point of view. To help clarify your points, too, make sure to provide additional quotations from the text that help me see what you're trying to get at. I'm not sure I see the distinction you're drawing between public consciousness of queerness and queerness itself, so I'll be curious to chat more about this in class.
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ReplyDeleteAs I think about queerness as it relates to this chapter, I think that queer history is possible insofar as you can understand that history as queer. From what I took from the reading, Hall summarized a great deal of information surrounding the presence of same-sex physical and/or emotional relationships, but my question is can we view it as queer? To me, questions around how we have gotten this history and how it has been shaped for us is really important. To say that evidence of same sex couples is queer history without first noting how the information was documented in the first place is to discount the experience of contemporary queerness to something that could very well be a different thing. Still, I think that Hall notes especially on page 29, that without the cultural and societal moves that happened in the particular space of persecution of same-sex couples we would lack the foundational circumstances that went on to create conceptions and experiences of queerness now. One of the ways that I really thought this was powerful was rooted in the nature of protest and resilience that was noted throughout history. It seemed like the more rules that were put in place by members of the church, government, or both, the more structured the actual identities became as well. So, to answer the question, I think that queer history is possible if we look at it in terms of growth of the queer community and less like fully developed communities and experiences throughout history.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Regi, for getting caught up on this post. Your fundamental question of whether or not we can view these historical examples of same-sex desire or physical acts is exactly the question we should be asking. And as we've been discovering in class, there are multiple ways of answering it, for it's very complex terrain. And your observation that social identities like those associated with queerness come into being in opposition to oppression is an important one to continue musing on.
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